.

[bobknop]

Its a single surface,smaller, so stiffer to handle .(less flex of tubes)
Never seen one with VG,or there must be two of them.
Despite dhv listing.
Regards Sitting Bob.

[bobknop]

No zips to do!,Me Too.........

look at 0.56 min.

Regards Sitting Bob.

[Dontsink]

Its a single surface,smaller, so stiffer to handle .(less flex of tubes)
Never seen one with VG,or there must be two of them.
Despite dhv listing.
Regards Sitting Bob.

http://www.dhv.de/db1/source/technicdat ... 1689&nopr=

This is weird,the Lightfex is just a smaller Perfex.
Even the Funfex does not have a VG.
Maybe it is a supersecret SS glider with revolutionary performance...
Maybe serious german engineers in lab coats made a mistake when typing...

[bobknop]

Northwing Freedom…VG ineffective?

Maybe those germans knew something all along......(no VG on fex )

Regards Sitting Bob

[adyr]

Ok, my first question still stands... three wings, one choice... which one should it be? I'm afraid that if I'll pick the 14 sqm one, I will go down like a brick. A single surface, even bigger... that I'll do a lot of sled rides... if I'll pick the double-surface, I'll whack a lot... decisions, decisions... so hard to decide.

[psuguru]

Ok, my first question still stands... three wings, one choice... which one should it be? I'm afraid that if I'll pick the 14 sqm one, I will go down like a brick. A single surface, even bigger... that I'll do a lot of sled rides... if I'll pick the double-surface, I'll whack a lot... decisions, decisions... so hard to decide.

My advice is this:
Buy a modern, single surface glider that puts you at ~75-80% of the recommended maximum clip in weight.
The list:
Funky (15 or 17) get a flat rigging mod kit.
Falcon3 (sizes, various)
Malibu (166 or 188)
Airborne F2 or Fun.
Avian Fly (15 or 17)

I haven't included the Target because it's not very good in several respects
or the Finsterwalder gliders because this is my advice and I don't like them or the Bautek or Icaro products because I know nothing about them.
You won't have many sled-rides if you fly from decent hills in a breeze. What you will have is a lighter glider that's somewhat less responsive to control inputs and therefore more forgiving of mishandling. Spares will be cheaper.
Otherwise get a DS glider in the K4 class, one that you know you will be able to get spares for (especially down-tubes).

[adyr]

Unfortunately, I'm limited to short pack gliders, due of the available storage space and transport. Does any of those pack at 2 m or so?

LE: I see that Falcon 3 can be short packed, but I hear it's not that easy...

[Dontsink]

Unfortunately, I'm limited to short pack gliders, due of the available storage space and transport. Does any of those pack at 2 m or so?

LE: I see that Falcon 3 can be short packed, but I hear it's not that easy...

It does not look easy at all...
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Falcon_3_Shortpack

I searched quite a bit and i found nothing comparable to the Fexes.It's a bummer.
I'm 70 to 73kg and Mike Golder told me to definitely get the Perfex and not the smaller one.He should know.
Good luck in your search!.

[over50]

[I haven't included the Target because it's not very good in several respects
.

Hello psugru,
here I don't understand you: What should be wrong with the target /fox from aeros? It's very good compared to the other modern SS-HGs, everybody told, who ever flew one.

And: What's important to the question above: It can be shortpacked (2,5 meters)...

Johannes

[psuguru]

[I haven't included the Target because it's not very good in several respects
.

Hello psugru,
here I don't understand you: What should be wrong with the target /fox from aeros? It's very good compared to the other modern SS-HGs, everybody told, who ever flew one.

And: What's important to the question above: It can be shortpacked (2,5 meters)...

Johannes

The Target isn't the Fox.
The Target is an old design aimed at student pilots. In fact the original name of the glider WAS "The Student" but Aeros were persuaded that this would damage sales.
The frame hardware is not finished to the same standard of other gliders in the same class.
The glide performance is relatively poor, both in rate and angle.
The static balance is tail heavy meaning hill launches require greater care in control.
The roll response of the glider is ponderous by modern standards.
I have seen a Target stripped down to its 2M packing length and wouldn't want to do it every time I flew, I'd lose the will to live.
I have let a couple of Target owners fly the Malibu. They both remarked on how much better the performance, balance and control were compared to their own wing.
I've never seen a Fox, so can't comment on it.

[winDfried]

I still fly and like those single sail fun gliders that I dislike to hear termed as "beginner wings".

The first one to keep forever definitely should be a single sail IMHO.
For adyr being located in Romania, the right size of the Aeros Target would be first choice, because Aeros has a country specific pricing and supply policy.
The Falcon only if there is a WW supplyer near to You.

If in need for shortpack the Lightfex (no VG!) would be Your choice.
Yes the smaller one, because in Your mediterranean country
the termals and wind being strong. And on the weak days you´re on your Paraglider anyway.
A small double sail is also in the offers, it´s called Airfex, but even less recommendable for beginners.

For over50 (hope to meet You soon, on some mountain !) the Perfex, the Relax, the (most heavy) Funky in the larger size would be my recommendation.
In Southern Germany the conditions are often mellow, and later in your carreer You will be on Your second wing in the hammer-thermals.

As a first glider I would not recommend the double sails like my Funfex however.
Don´t worry re performance: With my Funfex I could easily keep up with Ozone R10s, the maybe best paragliders ever constructed.
With the Perfex of my comrade still I am faster, higher and longer up than comparable serial class (Dhv 2, EN-c) paragliders. There are still days where the Paras fly and we are on the ground though... but the opposite (too much wind) is more often.

So sorry, Psuguru, but with this statement

I haven't included the Target because it's not very good in several respects
or the Finsterwalder gliders because this is my advice and I don't like them or the Bautek or Icaro products because I know nothing about them...

You are way off.
You admit here to know nothing on the best glider manufacturer in the world.

Re: Old design: If You want a bird with curved tips, like a RX2 or the Funky so be it.
But keep in mind, that as a beginner You will whack - often.
And these Tips will break and cost, nearly as much as an upright.

Then look at what aluminum the manufactureres use.
The cheap heavy grey one, like in the Funky?
Or the better stiffer lighter shiny high quality one like in the Relax or Perfex.
So my opinion again: there is nothing wrong with a solid 20 yr old design, that sitll flies better than current paragliders.
If You can affort to buy new, go ahead and buy new. If not, watch the used glider market (maybe on dhv.de) and catch something there.
Go out and have fun, W.

[psuguru]

So sorry, Psuguru, but with this statement

I haven't included the Target because it's not very good in several respects
or the Finsterwalder gliders because this is my advice and I don't like them or the Bautek or Icaro products because I know nothing about them...

You are way off.
You admit here to know nothing on the best glider manufacturer in the world.

Do you mean Aeros, Icaro, Finsterwalder or Bautek? I think Wills Wings probably wears that particular crown.
I defend my statement that the Target is not very good and I really don't like the Finsterwalders, so that statement still stands. I have not come across any Icaro or Bautek wings....so that statement still stands too. Being a good manufacturer doesn't describe the quality or performance of the glider in any way.
Are you really trying to pick an aluminium grade by its colour? The Funky is made from 7075 grade tubing, bright anodised, so your observation doesn't make sense to me.

This thread's about buying a first glider that you would want to keep.
Aeros Target? Oh please.

[over50]

I defend my statement that the Target is not very good ...
This thread's about buying a first glider that you would want to keep.
Aeros Target? Oh please.

To be true :
My real question could be: Can best material guarantee/help me, an 53-year-old beginner, becoming a good HG-Plilot? - I'm not strong, not sporty up to now.

More important for "later on" is the man/woman at the speedbar. And even if I got the same material, I never flew 11 hours/770 km with.

We all here have the best part in sporty leisure, I bet, and material is just one part of this pleasure. No need to "defend" nothing!

Here appear very helpful advices, and we all thank all of them. They all are lovely to their owners: the Malibus, the funkys, the perfexexsfunfexes ... - and great things can happen with (my mouth got open, when I read, the one pilot here flew with his funfex over 3700 meters high - I would like too; but only to buy a funfex ain't enough for ...!)
And the fox may be my beginner HG, simply because I can get one (lent) - what I later buy - who knows?

Johannes

[adyr]

I looked into those gliders over the internet. Apparently Aeros Target is not as good as Perfex. At flying characteristics, I mean. At short-mounting, Finsterwalder is unbeatable.

I decided to get the Perfex, they recommened Perfex "if I'm athletic enough", over Lightfex. Hopefully I am, if not, I'll train. I prefer the lower sink rate and the DHV 1-2 rating, too. I'll add some water as balast and perhaps I'll buy a heavier harness for the flights in rougher conditions.

Thank you all for your advices.

[psuguru]

I defend my statement that the Target is not very good ...
This thread's about buying a first glider that you would want to keep.
Aeros Target? Oh please.

To be true :
My real question could be: Can best material guarantee/help me, an 53-year-old beginner, becoming a good HG-Plilot? - I'm not strong, not sporty up to now.

More important for "later on" is the man/woman at the speedbar. And even if I got the same material, I never flew 11 hours/770 km with.

We all here have the best part in sporty leisure, I bet, and material is just one part of this pleasure. No need to "defend" nothing!

Here appear very helpful advices, and we all thank all of them. They all are lovely to their owners: the Malibus, the funkys, the perfexexsfunfexes ... - and great things can happen with (my mouth got open, when I read, the one pilot here flew with his funfex over 3700 meters high - I would like too; but only to buy a funfex ain't enough for ...!)
And the fox may be my beginner HG, simply because I can get one (lent) - what I later buy - who knows?

Johannes

Johannes,
I will be 60 in 2 months time and I started hang gliding (again) when I was 57.
Every school I know of in the UK lets pupils use a school glider that is always a big single surface type.
But that doesn't mean you should buy the same type.
My school uses FUN 190's
The way training works in the UK is that there are 2 stages to the school training.
Stage 1 is called the "Elementary Pilot certificate". The school teaches this with the school glider.
At the end of this course, you can launch and land safely and can carry out 45 degree turns to aim for the landing point. There is a written test.
Stage 2 is called the "Club Pilot Certificate". At the end of this course, you will have completed at least 3 soaring flights of more than 10 minutes, from a hill over 300 feet and carry out landings within 15 metres of a spot. The instructor will sign that you are capable of flying on a site with other pilots present. There is a more difficult written test.
Club pilot training is always carried out on the student's own equipment. Many pilots in the UK choose a double surface glider as their first glider and carry out training using it.
Choosing a glider is a bit like choosing a car. The best guide to use is "Do you want it". Don't buy it because "I'm just settling for this because it's all I think I can deal with" because you'll soon wish you'd gone for the other one.
Beware of listening to agents for manufacturers.

[over50]

I read, the one pilot here flew with his funfex over 3700 meters high - I would like too; but only to buy a funfex ain't enough for ...!)
And the fox may be my beginner HG,

Another pilot here (T.B. in DHV XC) four days ago flew an elder, used Icaro easy 14 more than 5 hours and more than a hundred kms. Just I'm thinking about a rediscovery of the no more built easy: it was DHV 1-2 or 2, double surface, light, ... then came the "easy 2" , then the "orbiter", always heavier, more high level intermediates. What about buying an elder first time icaro easy (14,5 qm), which it seems to be be one (really easy!) - but next year after the time with the fox... .

Johannes

[over50]

Hello "Too-Beginners":

Tomorrow I begin the height flights: 14 days we (8 male, one female) try the height down from about 1050 m to 550 m; 30 times is the minimum to get examined. Unfortunately just the weather becomes bad (rainy) for the weekend, but maybe two days only

The glider, I got lent for in the end wasn't the aeros fox 16- they all are out and come back to the dealer about 6 weeks too late for me. But he gave me the one, he built some years ago by himslelf: IKARUS funflyer 390.now I'm happy to have it in my carport, on my van and maybe tomorrow on my shoulders: 23,5 kg, 9,9 m wingspan, 15,6 qm - just light/easy enough for my 72 kgs on the first grounghandlings.
My parachute is new (independence anullar evo 22: 1,8 kg!) and also my "Gurtzeug" (woodyvalley flex 2- very exactly fitting).
I can use the glider, as long as needed, and later (I can't buy the "390", it's his last one)... ? I'll report here!

Btw.: Very interesting for you "overseas" could become the new falcon 4, isn't it?

Johannes

[jpwiggins]

[blindrodie]

OK JP that's 5...

[Oakdude]

PSUGURU, your advice is indeed good and balanced. I agree with every bit.

I learned to fly on a target, and whilst very forgiving. No way would I buy one....far too sloppy.
The double surface advice is correct....go for an easy to handle double surface wing, second hand. Then after 12 months you can get something else maybe. By then you will know whats what and be able to make an informed choice which you will be happy with ongoing.
Happy flying and welcome to the family Johannes
Paul