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By paraglidingswiss
#285823
Congrats over50 for your dream came true. You ought to do it over and over again.








User avatar
By over50
#286640
paicolman wrote: instructor made a very cool, very light HG, with DHV certification and everything, but again - it's made in switzerland

http://www.deltaflugschule.ch/MainPages ... ifter.aspx

On the other hand: a single surface HG will be soon "to little", so maybe renting would be a good idea ... but Finsterwalder, or older HG's like Moyes Mars are also very good for beginners...)
Hello paicolman,

by chance we had a "lifter" on our traininghill yesterday. Even I could make about three miniflights (30 meters) with. It was extremely light in handling, true. And it liked to stay in the air as well.
But its construction - to my opinion - is too light; by landing it mostly turned to the left side/or to the right side halfcircle wise. At last one of us (not me!) damaged it completely (different tubes broken) . I surely wouldn't buy one!

At the moment, I too think about buying a double surface with the qualitys of a singele surface glider. There are few, but the seedwings space and the finsterwalder Funfex seem to do so. Just two different funfexes are used to buy and also two space - but I prefer the funfex now.

Johannes

For my highflights I find another solution, rent or borrow
User avatar
By psuguru
#286649
over50 wrote:[ by landing it mostly turned to the left side/or to the right side halfcircle wise. At last one of us (not me!) damaged it completely (different tubes broken)
Poor landing technique IMHO. But that's not unusual in a school!
User avatar
By zamuro
#286655
Dontsink wrote:I copied Rolf Schatzmann's colors,white and totally eighties fluo green.Here is a pic of his glider,mine should look the same.

Image

Image


And the genie back in the bottle...

Image
That small short packaged glider does look neat. Hope that there were more gliders with this option.
By bobknop
#286660
This is the right glider,now all you need is a
smaller A frame and a pg harnas,nice and small.
(still at it,promoting sittinghg)
See youtube video on latest ozreport,dutch soaring maasvlakte 2
windy start at 0.55min. perfex supine can handle lots of wind.
Regards sitting Bob.





User avatar
By over50
#286856
Bit confused,

I could talk with two absolute different funfex pilots on the height training of another group today:
- the one told, he has been flying nothing else than the funfex, which he bought just after his A-licence, ha can't compare, because he never used anything else for now about eighteen years.
- And the other told almost the opposite of it: six times he had broken his uprights, always "bombing in", when landing; may be his bad landing technique (he too long long practiced landing on the weels; now he's unsure landing on his feet) and the curious finsterwalder construction (negative "V" on finsterwalder wings, sometimes touching the ground with the wing tips) are reasons for.

So I don't even take finsterwalder. I am bloody beginner and definitely need success and not frustration. The best instructor of the world promised to lend me a modern aeros fox for my hight flights in august/september and then let me fly all these models - before - I buy - whatever.

So may be, I'm not posting here before september again... !?

Johannes
User avatar
By psuguru
#286959
Avian Fly

Do it

You know you want it
User avatar
By over50
#287014
psuguru wrote:Avian Fly

Do it
...can't keep my mouth calm, as I promiseed ("... september ...")

To my headline: "... beginner hangglider for all purposes... "Now I'm sure, there is no!!!!!!!

As I told, I met (3 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) beginners on saturday ending their HG carreer - for time. What's the most important thing in the beginning? - The first glider has to be as simple and forgiving as possible ever.

And, now after months, I'm sure, there will be no beginner Hg for all purposes later on, as I hoped for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the beginning we need one, which is absolutely simple, one like the target/fox, the relax/rx 2 (even the funky-copy), the falcon 3/4 or whatever. always forgiving our mistakes and keeping our happy smile.

And later on we need one to keep our smile on the face - as the rio 2 may do.

German spoken: Every brand needs a real DHV 1-2 HG rating: light double surface as the avian 2 may be ( and the space tried to do).

And this will be our second glider, maybe, the first, we purchase after our (rented) DHV 1 HG!

And - maybe!? - it's impossible to built one "beginner HG for all purposes".

What's me: I'm happy to start with the lent aeros fox in about seven weeks - if I afford the trainig hill any more.

Johannes
User avatar
By soaring
#287017
over50 wrote:German spoken: Every brand needs a real DHV 1-2 HG rating: light double surface as the avian 2 may be ( and the space tried to do).

Johannes
Honestly, that would be the Space. Try and compare it to the (now out of production) Icaro2000 Laminar Easy 16. The Easy is DHV1-2 in every category. The Space 16 is DHV1-2 in ONE category with the rest being DHV1 just like a beginners glider. And the Easy seems to be more of a "true" intermediate wing. The Space would be much more beginner friendly.

I would say that after basic training and your first handful of high altitude flights you can fly the Space with no problems at all. It's very forgiving yet still has respectable performance. It was reviewed in both the German Thermik magazine and in the British Skywings. Both reviews noted the very good performance compared to it's DHV rating.

It's no competition machine but it will suit even newly qualified pilots. I have heard of German pilots doing their FIRST mountain flights on a Space.

Just my two cents :)

The Rio2 also looks VERY interesting in this respect too! 8)

The Sport2 and the Sting3 would require a bit more pilot skills and for that you need your own single surface glider. But if you train on a single surface glider in school I would say you could progress directly to the Space once you've earned your license.
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By over50
#287019
soaring wrote:
over50 wrote:German spoken: Every brand needs a real DHV 1-2 HG rating: light double surface as the space tried to do).
Honestly, that would be the Space. Try and compare it to the (now out of production) Icaro2000 Laminar Easy 16. The Space would be much more beginner friendly.
It's very forgiving yet still has respectable performance.
It's no competition machine but it will suit even newly qualified pilots. I have heard of German pilots doing their FIRST mountain flights on a Space.
Hey soaring,

I confirm with you in almost all but one:

The biggest mistake, seedwings made with the space - it's just one, but important (Seedwings , can you read this?!) - is: not to build a space 15.For many people the space 16 is just too big and the space 14 needs too much running! Believe me: They all sell their 16 and their 14 ones therefore!

Johannes
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By paicolman
#287154
I can only agree with soaring... The Space is a fine piece of flying equipment... There is the size issue you mentioned, but with the easy handling of the space, I can imagine you can fly a Space 16 very easily.

I own a Kestrel myself, and was thinking of the space before that and flew one once, but got the older kestrel for a better price than a new space at the time. I know many students who got their Space just before their licence here in switzerland, and all of them seem quite happy with the wing.

Sad to hear from the lifter... Actually, I would not expect it to get damaged, it must have be hitten hard... Anyway, that's in my opinion also "too light" to keep as main wing, I would buy one as a second wing either for ski-starts in winter or just for fun, if I had more $time$ :wink:
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By soaring
#287157
paicolman wrote:I can only agree with soaring... The Space is a fine piece of flying equipment... There is the size issue you mentioned, but with the easy handling of the space, I can imagine you can fly a Space 16 very easily.
I weight 80 kg and was adviced by Seedwings Europe to get the 16'er because I was flying in the flatlands of Denmark with weaker thermals. If I lived in Austria he would have adviced the 14'er.

With Johannes weighing 72 kg and living in southern Germany with mountains (right?) I think the Space 14 would be just perfect :) The recommended body weight is 55 - 85 kg.
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By over50
#287169
soaring wrote:...the (now out of production) Icaro2000 Laminar Easy 16. The Easy is DHV1-2 in every category. ... once you've earned your license.
A nice thought: Icaro producing the easy again (then "easy 3") between the rx 2 (DHV1) and the orbiter (DHV 2.3; not really a consequence oif the easy 2!?).Much more DHV 1-2 - HGs between beginner and intermideate would even be good for the whole HG-movement.
Btw in PG there are much more models with 1-2, very appreciated on the market - the PG-market is so much bigger than ours. :oops:
I got time enough to wait for some movemets on our HG market, and hope to go for earning my license on the nice lent aeros fox.

Did you hear:The german bautek are told to develop a light double surface as the first glider to purchase(pre-production-name "fafnir 2"), even this year?!

Johannes
User avatar
By over50
#287328
over50 wrote:The german bautek are told to develop a light double surface as the first glider to purchase
It's right: Bautek are constructing somewhat for the beginner - with double surface amount !!!!!! - It should come even this year as 14 and 16 qm - and it will be all bautek quality!. - I can wait, And maybe, in the end nex year i fly the beginner bautek 16 as my one and only?!

Good times! Aren't they?! They won' t let the HG go down! They want to be there much more HG beginners in the next years - may be, not as much as PG do! - But, as Harald Zimmer (chief of bautek) told on telephone, "HG isa too worthy sport, as to go down"! - So we all think too here, do we?

Johannes
Last edited by over50 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By adyr
#287364
Hi,

I have the same dilema... I'm a paraglider pilot that tries to be biwingual. I thought of buying a new wing, and I narrowed down to Finsterwalder wings due of short packing facility (no storage room, and small car).

I weight about 68 kg naked, my weight can vary from 65 to 72 kg. I'll have a 4.7 kg harness and a reserve that will be a little over 2 kg. Radio, water, helmet, clothes, boots... so the hang weight will be somewhere around 80 kg.

From Finsterwalder, I think I could choose among 3 wings:

- Lightfex. This seems to me kind of small (14 sqm).

Although it's a single surface, it has VG. Finsterwalder claims 10.5:1 gliding ratio, which I guess is far from truth. I asked somebody on youtube for details, and he told me that my weight is ok for it... but... that it has about 1.4 m/s sink rate (might be an older variant, though). It seems pretty high to me. My first paraglider had that much. My current one has about 9.3:1 gliding ratio and a minimum sink rate of 1.1 m/s or so. Down towards 1.2 at best GR. I seem to be a little too heavy for this glider, although in the weight range...

- Perfex. 16 sqm, no VG, similar with Lightfex in construction. I'm at the bottom of the weight range, perhaps even too light. This glider would have a low stall speed, even lower than my paraglider! Finsterwalder claims lower GR: 10:1. It might mean that the real one is lower than for Lightfex (probably because Lightfex achieves it with VG on).

- Funfex. 16 sqm, double surface. Heavier, higher stall speed. Some say it's harder to land. I'm at the bottom of the weight range. More expensive. 10.5:1 according to Finsterwalder. Should be better than their single surfaces, though.

Now, I don't know what to choose. I would want to get one that does not dissapoint me with the performance, compared with my paraglider. The only thing that seems to be better than my paraglider is top speed (and collapse resistence, this is one reason why I decided to be biwingual).

It's not clear to me how big are the differences between Lightfex and Funfex. Is it worth to get a Funfex, considering the bigger weight and higher stall speed?

PS I'm learning on a Tecma Sport Spirale Grande Vol which is very old and has very bad performance. If Finsterwalder wings have similar performance, I would rather stick with my paraglider.
User avatar
By soaring
#287372
I think most people choose Finsterwalder for their short pack abilities.

If I didn't need that specific feature I would choose another brand. I have no real life experience to support this view though.

But the lightfex/funfex etc. were designed in the late 80's / early 90's. I can't help thinking that no matter how good these designs are they are still 20 years old.

Imagine if Wills Wing had stopped all development after the SuperSport. Would you still buy that model of would you look elsewhere? :)

Maybe I'm wrong.....
User avatar
By Dontsink
#287383
adyr wrote:Hi,

I have the same dilema... I'm a paraglider pilot that tries to be biwingual. I thought of buying a new wing, and I narrowed down to Finsterwalder wings due of short packing facility (no storage room, and small car).

I weight about 68 kg naked, my weight can vary from 65 to 72 kg. I'll have a 4.7 kg harness and a reserve that will be a little over 2 kg. Radio, water, helmet, clothes, boots... so the hang weight will be somewhere around 80 kg.

From Finsterwalder, I think I could choose among 3 wings:

- Lightfex. This seems to me kind of small (14 sqm).

Although it's a single surface, it has VG. Finsterwalder claims 10.5:1 gliding ratio, which I guess is far from truth. I asked somebody on youtube for details, and he told me that my weight is ok for it... but... that it has about 1.4 m/s sink rate (might be an older variant, though). It seems pretty high to me. My first paraglider had that much. My current one has about 9.3:1 gliding ratio and a minimum sink rate of 1.1 m/s or so. Down towards 1.2 at best GR. I seem to be a little too heavy for this glider, although in the weight range...

- Perfex. 16 sqm, no VG, similar with Lightfex in construction. I'm at the bottom of the weight range, perhaps even too light. This glider would have a low stall speed, even lower than my paraglider! Finsterwalder claims lower GR: 10:1. It might mean that the real one is lower than for Lightfex (probably because Lightfex achieves it with VG on).

- Funfex. 16 sqm, double surface. Heavier, higher stall speed. Some say it's harder to land. I'm at the bottom of the weight range. More expensive. 10.5:1 according to Finsterwalder. Should be better than their single surfaces, though.

Now, I don't know what to choose. I would want to get one that does not dissapoint me with the performance, compared with my paraglider. The only thing that seems to be better than my paraglider is top speed (and collapse resistence, this is one reason why I decided to be biwingual).

It's not clear to me how big are the differences between Lightfex and Funfex. Is it worth to get a Funfex, considering the bigger weight and higher stall speed?

PS I'm learning on a Tecma Sport Spirale Grande Vol which is very old and has very bad performance. If Finsterwalder wings have similar performance, I would rather stick with my paraglider.
I'm also a PG pilot and i had the same doubts you have.I definitely wanted a shortpack glider so it was either Perfex or Funfex for me.Shame that Finsterwalder will not update their designs but it is understandable i guess,HG was already in recession before everything went into recession...
The problem is that beginner PG's are offering very good performance compared to beginner HG's.
I don't really expect the Perfex i've ordered to have much more glide or less sink rate than my Sky Anakis2...but it will not collapse,it will dive at high speed and it will handle more wind on take off(i hope...)
I decided on the Perfex vs the Funfex because the perf. increase is probably not that much in the Funfex,the weight,the rigging up/down and the comments by owners.
The Perfex is a "mother" on landings,mixed opinions on the Funfex(PIO).I chose to eat humble pie,things happen fast in an HG landing...
Even though the Perfex design is old it does have most of the features of modern SS gliders...generous double surface at the front and mylar inserts.
Curved wingtips are disliked by many experienced HG pilots,they cange the handling apparently.

I think there is a new market in HG, paraglider pilots who want an easy, simple and light HG they can store and transport easily.But we would like at least the performance of a DHV 1-2 PG.
I'd like to see a Fex Funky,a Fex Freedom,a Fex RX2...
For the weight and wing size choice i would mail Mike Golder at Finsterwalder directly,let him know where you will be flying and the usual conditions(high winds,mountain,strong/weak thermals etc).He should have good advice.
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By adyr
#287386
Well, about conditions, they are those that made me think of hang gliding: strong winds that keep the paragliders in front of the slope, more or less without advancing. Or strong mountain conditions... So between Lightfex and Perfex I should pick Lightfex, I guess, due of the smaller surface and VG. I think I won't pick Funfex because of its weight, higher stall speed and landing behaviour. Better safe than sorry. I would really like to see a better sink rate on that Lightfex, though, something like 1.2 m/s should be allright. 1.4 is a lot, when I had the paraglider with that sink rate, I was able to do only sled rides in our favourite flying place. I would hate to do that with the hang glider, too.
By bobknop
#287387
The speedfex is,no...was the only glider with VG.
Where can i read there is an other fex with a VG?
The speedfex is discontinued,i see on their site....
Regards ,Sitting Bob.
User avatar
By adyr
#287388
Lightfex has VG, too. I cannot post links yet, but look on the DHV site for the Lightfex certification.

Probably that's why it's listed on Finsterwalder site with more performance (GR 10.5:1 versus 10:1) than Perfex. Also probably it's one reason why it got DHV2, unlike Perfex (1-2).
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